TikTok Billboard Hits Over on Needle Music with Mikhael Porter, CEO of Needle Music

Mikhael has reimagined what social media can be with Needle Music, the world’s first social platform built to facilitate meaningful connections through music. Despite all the negative effects that social media has on one’s mental health, Mikhael is a firm believer in its positive power. Needle is the perfect case study, bringing together consumers and influencers in a space that rewards both parties for their interactivity. They've placed an emphasis on TikTok marketing, and Mikhael hopes to ride the wave of creator empowerment that the platform has ushered in.

Guest:
Mikhael Porter - LinkedIn

Needle Music
TikTok - @needle.music
Instagram - @needle.music

Download the Needle Music on the IOS or Android App Store Today!

Transcript

Kyle Kaplanis: 0:00

Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of BizTok for TikTok. It is your host Kyle Kaplanis, and in the studio today, I have somebody that is super cool in the music space. His name is Mikhael Porter. He has reimagined what social media can be with Needle Music, the world's first social platform built to facilitate meaningful connections through music. Needle is a perfect case study bringing together consumers and influencers in a space that rewards both parties for their interactivity. We're gonna be chatting with Mikhael today on the show about Needle Music and how it's reshaping the creator economy. So, Mikhael, welcome to BizTok for TikTok.

Mik Porter: 0:39

Thank you. I'm super excited to be here and talk about Needle and all things TikTok in the music space.

Kyle Kaplanis: 0:45

Michael, I love to know your origin story. Talk to me a little bit about who you are and how this evening came up.

Mik Porter: 0:51

I've always been probably like you and like a lot of our listeners and users of the platform, which is someone that has loved music for as long as I can remember. And it's always been a part of my day and my emotions and just my life, whether it's happy. Whether, I'm in a tough time, whether I'm in the gym playing sports, traveling with friends, cooking, there's so many musical moments. The social media, that is so pervasive now, I walked into music as being now the dominant aspect of their platforms and really the driver of the experience. And so we thought that there should be a way to lead and create a social media intentionally for music that helps promote musicians in the industry. Since I was little, all I can remember is loving music and music littering my life in the best of ways. It's really just bringing together a couple passions, which are people in music, which sounds grandiose, cuz most people in this world are passionate about people in music, but when you boiled it down, that's really my gift. And what I feel like is my purpose in life is connecting people is in connecting music and now. Being able to connect people through music. That's how we arrive where we are.

Kyle Kaplanis: 1:59

I love that man. And it is one of those things like wherever you live in the world, like you said, people and music is it's part of our culture, regardless of what part of the globe you're on. With Needle, you've created something really, really powerful because again, Those two things are what people are continuously do in their life, regardless if it's their focus or not. It's really cool. So how did this concept come up you mentioned with Needle, but tell me the steps of you sitting down and saying, okay, we're gonna create this app for people. Were you talking with friends? Were they saying and sharing with you? Hey, I wish that there was a platform that I can discover new music, like talk to me about.

Mik Porter: 2:33

I'm so glad you asked the question, the way that you did, a lot of people just asked it so how'd you start needle? But you're asking about how does someone go from idea to product.

Kyle Kaplanis: 2:41

Exactly.

Mik Porter: 2:42

Zero to one and being a non-technical founder. It's something that I really wanna inspire other non-technical founders to do. A few of my friends started spitballing this idea, going back and forth. And then a couple of them really latched onto it. And we were just workshopping this idea that started as a thought, a conversation, a group text and flush it out into all right. Let's just draw out some screens of phones and some pages of the product and what will it look like? It started that simply at a retreat at one of my friends' family's house who's now one of my co-founders. And then the other co-founder of mine, Shane had a brother who had a connection with someone that did app development and we just got lucky and sourced our way to people that could help us create this vision and turned what was a dream into a reality.

Kyle Kaplanis: 3:31

I love that. Most of the guests I have on my show that have started a small business, or they're really like successful now in what they're done, a lot of them had zero experience before they just had this amazing idea. And they talked with some people and these people said, yo, if you can make that a thing, that would be huge because that's something I need value in my life. And it sounds like that's the same thing. Like not a technical background, which could have put you off. You could have been like, you know what? I don't have that. This is a cool idea, but maybe someday somebody who does will create this, but you didn't let that fear hold you back. You know what I mean? You're just like, no, like this is something that we need and everybody would find a place for it in their life. And I'm gonna create this now. And I think that's really, really important for people to hear. In fact, I just made a post about fear of failure and fear of success and It sounds like you just push those aside and we're like, I'm gonna just do this regardless and see what happens. And I love that.

Mik Porter: 4:21

I mean, vision and grit, right? Those are the two most important characteristics. Yes. I think knowing how to code is the biggest asset anyone can have in the world today and today, as we, as we move forward, it is gonna become the universal language. But if you have the vision, if you have the grit and you are willing to not stop and work tirelessly to make it happen. You can find the people to put in place to assist you. You can always find the engineer may be harder then you may think, and it's hard to know if they're at the quality that you want and the transparency process and trying to get an engineer to start a project is tough. And it's a little bit muddy right now. Mm-hmm if you find the right person, you can create it. And if you don't stop until you find the right person, you'll make it a reality. I really want to inspire other non-technical founders to create technical products because it is possible and investors and others look at it as a risk. But I think that the most important part in the process is the vision and just the grit to make it a reality.

Kyle Kaplanis: 5:19

A hundred percent man, a hundred percent and like music, because this is a TikTok focused podcast. So I want to contribute a little bit of that. TikTok has really helped drive music. Finding new music and artists being able to emerge in a platform that Hollywood isn't dictating anymore. You know, saying like this is the new star world. Whereas TikTok is like, no, I love this song, this creator. So was TikTok had any inspiration to saying, Hey, let's create an app that involves creators and music and let's put it over here as well. Was there any drive from that?

Mik Porter: 5:52

I would say in terms of inspiration for creating Needle, we created it more out of necessity for wanting to share music in a more fun and easy way. But as we grew into the project and certainly now, and over the last year, plus we've seen the convergence, the defi convergence of TikTok and social media and the streaming services in the music industry. Right. They're becoming one, they are merging. But there's no social media that was built specifically for the music industry. So we think that there should be more ways to trend and promote music than creating a TikTok video. A lot of these artists don't necessarily have the innate skillset or the desire to get on TikTok, to promote their art piece and their work. So we think that there should be a way to promote music through music. And that's really what we're trying to do. TikTok is never gonna be touched in terms of what it's doing and it's incredible. We can debate for hours, whether it's good or bad for music and the world of minute and a half long songs to go viral on TikTok. But I think it's so powerful as a platform and a tool and to allow anyone to create fame and grow a reach in an audience. But we think that you should be able to do that similarly, just through music curation and through the purest form of that art.

Kyle Kaplanis: 7:06

I love that Mik. Like you mentioned something with TikTok and the way it is and how we can debate back and forth. But interesting enough, I was just having this conversation with my kids and my wife actually downstairs today before school. I have two teenage daughters. One of them has 3.1 million on TikTok and she's getting into music herself. She's released four songs already. We're really going crazy with her music recently. So this is gonna be a perfect opportunity, but what I've noticed myself and anybody you can talk to has noticed that TikTok has made a massive shift. So yes, it used to be so much music, but now it's turning into more voice on, so therefore, I think personally that TikTok is gonna see a decrease in people being able to reach through their music because it's more sound on and talking focus. So this comes in a perfect opportunity for Needle Music, because people will still crave that piece of their culture and life that they've learned this new music. So having a place that is only music where we'll not get saturated with other content, like voice on or people talking or education that they can just go and Find a release there to just listen to music, find new artists and hear their story, learn more about them. I think is powerful. And like you said, sometimes people are very artistic, but they're a little bit nervous of creating video or they don't know how but they have this amazing music. And again, the fear of failure or success by creating a video is holding them back. Yeah. And so having this platform, that's only that, that they understand personally as an artist are like, dude, this is the place. I think that's wicked and I would love to know personally how it works. If I was an artist right now, how would come to Needle, put my music on there. What does that look like? And for a consumer side for listeners, talk to me a little bit about both those process.

Mik Porter: 8:47

Yeah, of course. So I certainly appreciate what you've just said. And I think it speaks to a lot of what we've created. So excited to continue to connect offline about this, but right now it's fairly simple, how it works is we're built on top of Spotify. We're still in our beta. We're built on top of the Spotify API. So really our goal is to enhance existing streaming services. Mm-hmm so we plan on integrating with the Apples, with the SoundClouds, with the Deezer's of the world and as many different streaming services as possible, and even potentially like a vivo down the road for music videos. Anything that's on Spotify, you can listen to, share, save, like on Needle. So it's just a more seamless social layer built on top of the streaming services. And it'll even get more fun when you do have the Apple users, the SoundCloud users and the Spotify users all able to interact with each other and by doing so, you're just increasing the amount of time that people are spending, listening to music and interacting and engaging with music. So every stream that happens on Needle, Is credited to the underlying streaming service. We still are able to hit our core objectives. And we think that we're increasing the overall size of the pie. Yeah. And just creating that social layer built on top of it. That is good for all. It's good for the artist to connect with their fans in a new way. It's good for the fans to connect with each other and their music curators of choice. And then also for the underlying services.

Kyle Kaplanis: 10:10

I love it. So basically it's just a value add on top of what people are already doing. So like you said, Spotify, the artist is already creating on there. Their music's on there, but now this is just a value add that they can have a profile to connect with their fans, but also fans can connect with artists and then also share their music taste and what they like. Because that's a common thing, these creators, these influencers who may not be in the music industry or space, but their fans are very interested in what their music listening looks like. My daughter, for instance, she has a wide range of music. She likes a lot of rock, but sometimes her dancing. Wow. Cuz she's known for dancing, but she dances to hiphop and all that stuff. Yeah. So people sometimes don't assume that she would like that music and then people are shocked. They're like, no way. You're a rocker girl down in your core. What songs do you like? So this would be a really fun. See how cool is that?

Mik Porter: 10:55

Exactly. Yeah. That's the perfect example right there. And not only would she connect with her existing fans in a deeper and cooler way now mm-hmm but she also broaden herself to new fans that share that same music taste as her, right?

Kyle Kaplanis: 11:07

Yes.

Mik Porter: 11:08

So it's really just the curator economy that we're creating, which is built one layer above or below, the creator economy. So yeah, we're just creating a platform for music curators, music lovers, music fans, alike, an artist, obviously to all share discover and really just connect through music at the end of the day,

Kyle Kaplanis: 11:28

And this is the perfect timing. There's a massive shift happening right now with social media. You hear it in the news a lot about TikTok creators. Do they actually have a solid community? Right now community is such a buzzword, but it's yeah, to me, most it can be Stickle. Yeah, but to me it's like one of the most powerful things and the reason why it about the word is cuz we're all craving. Like we're all craving a spot that we can share our passions with. And the fun thing, what I love about social the most is that you can, so many people from around the world and share passion with somebody. and it doesn't have to be your friends cuz a lot of our friends that we're hanging out with today, we might not have the same music taste at all. So having a core group of audiences that you can share music and learn new artists from that music style that you like is so powerful, but this is such a fun way for community driving. Regardless of feeling like you're a part of something, but through music, because we all like, again, it touches us in our soul and I'd love to ask a. Weird question, but that's

Mik Porter: 12:22

our slogan by the way, your music community right now, and you open up the app. Boom. Those are the first three words. You'll see.

Kyle Kaplanis: 12:28

Look at that. See, you've touched on something right there. Just the way your thought is for Needle music is just knowing the community driving is like such a,

Mik Porter: 12:36

it's such a powerful medium, totally

Kyle Kaplanis: 12:37

a hundred percent man. People are craving that. Just saying those three things, like community music, people. People are gonna flock to that and flooded out. I'm telling you, like it's gonna happen. I think Needle Music is gonna be the future of music and community. So it's gonna be huge, but I love to know have you noticed that there's all kinds of demographics on there? Are there people that are learning new artists with maybe like an old soul style and just curious.

Mik Porter: 13:02

Totally, totally. It's amazing. It's such an intimate reflection of you and your persona. So yeah, I mean like my best friend's little brother is, was stuck in the seventies. He's a seventies, eighties, classic rock die hard. And then we have some of our friends and parents that are like house heads. And so it's just so interesting to see and be able to connect with someone in a new way and a new medium, and one that we all love so much. It's been really exciting to also see music transcend language. So we have a huge follower base in Paris and in France which we didn't expect. Which is actually a direct result of some TikTok videos we did. One French kid who I love now, his name's Pierre and he's our French music ambassador. He created some TikTok videos and we went viral on his page. We had people in France that don't speak a lick of English. Yeah. A Needle is only given in English right now, and they're on our app for hours every single day and have been for months. So it's just really exciting to see that you don't even have to speak the same language to connect with each other through music. And I think that's so powerful both for our platform and the world moving forward. It's an exciting, exciting, medium to be able to explore and really help facilitate connections with people.

Kyle Kaplanis: 14:17

It's funny that you mentioned English and other cultures because karaoke is so huge and especially Korean and a lot of Asian cultures, but a lot of their music choices that they listen to or sing to yeah are English style music. And so I think that's fun how a lot of cultures gravitate to the Western world music. So what a fun opportunity for the whole world to enjoy this. And I'm sure you're going to develop into more languages. So talk to me about your vision, if like Needle Music was at the premium spot that you could ever imagine it to, what would that look like?

Mik Porter: 14:50

It's a beautiful world. Let me tell you, it's a platform that is really your one stop shop for curation right now. It's just music. It could be music videos. It could be podcasts, right. But we really wanna stay with the medium of music. So regardless of what streaming service you use. And who you're paying that $10 fee to mm-hmm we think that you want to interact with everyone that listens and loves music in this world. As a result, we think there's a lot of value we can extract based on your music curation and based on your music engagement. We have a point system right now on our platform where you get ranked based on the amount of engagement your music curation receives, but also how much time you spend listening and engaging with others on the platform. So we are now starting to allow our users to have real world value and transact with those points. Imagine a credit card points for music.

Kyle Kaplanis: 15:43

Yep.

Mik Porter: 15:44

So we imagine a world where people can actually get paid and earn a living just from curating music. Like your daughter, for example, should be able to gate her profile on Needle, whether it's with a token in web three or whether just with Fiat and points and make money based on her taste in music. that's a huge opportunity, both for existing influencers and celebrities, but also just the local DJs and community curators that deserve to be rewarded for their gift that they're putting out there.

Kyle Kaplanis: 16:11

Absolutely. And I love that you mentioned Web3. So you're gonna be contributing Web3 technology, into the backend with these tokenized, play to earn or, used to earn, so there's gonna be that aspect to it?

Mik Porter: 16:23

We don't have to do it. Yeah. But we want to do it when the time is right. Because we've already created this points infrastructure mm-hmm and economy, and are gonna continue to flush that out. Tokenizing things, it's a big buzzy word right now. And we believe very long term in Web3 as an industry, but get tokenizing our platform right now would just be able to give our users more utility, more ownership and just more transparency. And so those are all tenants that we are leaning into and all for. We will see when the time is right to do that, but we're certainly excited to continue to explore that. Absolutely.

Kyle Kaplanis: 16:56

Man, that's huge. I don't know if you know this, but on TikTok I'm known as @theweb3guy. I have a lot of passion with Web3 and I'm definitely an early adopter. The end of 2019 is when I jumped in. Being an early adopter, I understand the fact that this new world of tokenized and Web3 technologies and blockchain technologies will be the future of everything. It will be regardless of how much people hating on it and it just makes sense. The technology's there to be able to create ownership. To be able to create communities and be able to reward people with things they're doing. And I love the fact that you said, like being able to be rewarded with your music. Cuz a lot of artists right now are just, they get fucked over by Hollywood and all these management companies. And they only earn like what 10% I think of all the earnings. They're just like a robot with these people that are making a ton of money off them. But as an artist, having a platform like Needle, to be able to create their own communities, be able to earn the money without all these middle men. So huge. And I think artists are craving it. They're gonna be gravitating to things like that because they're tired of getting screwed over.

Mik Porter: 17:58

Hundred percent. And to even, expand on your question earlier, we imagine a world where you could upload any audio file to Needle, right. You don't even have to necessarily go through the streaming services. Right. Although we love that symbiotic relationship mm-hmm but I totally agree. And in your sentiment on Web3, we think that one of the biggest opportunities and issues right now with Web3 and with the blockchain and with any tokenized product is the consumer experience is the UI/UX of those products. And really if you boil Needle down at the end of the day, right now, all we are is a better and more connected UI and UX layer built on top of the streaming services, which we are seeing as becoming more commoditized as their catalogs and experiences are largely the same. We think that there's an opportunity to bring shine to the value that Web3 can have and a tokenized product can have by being that enhanced UI / UX layer. And we think we can enhance a lot of existing partnerships with a lot of existing Web3 companies too, with that effect. We're just gonna keep staying in our lane, doing what we're doing with our web two ambitions right now. Yeah. But we're having active conversations with some partners and I love it's, it's been a long, exciting path that we're continuing to educate and explore ourselves,

Kyle Kaplanis: 19:10

Mik that's super cool. I think a lot of people get put off by the words, Web3 and stuff, which I tell people it's not any different, like it's it's yeah. It shouldn't there's, it's better, better technology. It's just, yeah. Yeah. It makes things run better and have the ability to show proof of ownership and I love that part. But people are separating them too much and they don't realize that it's already happening and they may already be using some sort of Web3 without even knowing it.

Mik Porter: 19:34

That's the goal.

Kyle Kaplanis: 19:35

Exactly.

Mik Porter: 19:35

That's when it'll. That get exciting. Cause that's who doesn't want the people that are creating value to share in that upside. In theory, everyone is for that.

Kyle Kaplanis: 19:43

Exactly. I used to do so much education on Web3 on my TikTok. And then I realized, I'm not sure if that's the key to building the bridge. It's just creating tools, value and utilities that people will understand. And they're just going to wanna use it without having to know it, because I started thinking like, and I'm not trying to get on a side topic here. I'll bring it back. The internet for instance, is one thing that most people don't understand. They just use it. Because they know how to use it, but they don't need to know how it works

Mik Porter: 20:09

you hit the nail on the head, my friend, absolutely couldn't anymore.

Kyle Kaplanis: 20:13

You're creating a product that people are just gonna want to use and they don't even need to know that it's Web3 based. They're just gonna use it and be like, yo, this is cool. How am I making money by using these tokens and being interactive on the app. And then the artists are like, Hey, I'm making money by putting out my music and communicating with my audience.

Mik Porter: 20:30

You get to listen and share music and you get upside and you get real world value and you get money.

Kyle Kaplanis: 20:36

Right.

Mik Porter: 20:37

That is the dream. That is the world we're building towards.

Kyle Kaplanis: 20:40

Exactly. People say, would you change something? And sometimes I wish that I was born in the world today because like, when I was a kid, this would've been a freaking dream man. That's what we did. I remember bringing my CDs, my friends were like, Hey, come hang out and bring our CDs because sometimes, our parents wouldn't have bought that one, but our friends are like, I have the new album of this and we'd go and listen together in a garage or whatever, like kids do.

Mik Porter: 21:05

I had my little zipper booklet of CDs. Walkman always on me was same man.

Kyle Kaplanis: 21:10

That was part of our culture in life. And. Oh, man. I couldn't even imagine having the opportunity to possibly reaching out to some of these artists to just say, Hey man, like your song changed my life or your song got me through this breakup man. But being able to maybe have that connection, holy shit that opportunity would be insane. And that's what people are craving as well is to reach out to these people who have made an impact to them and be able to just even thank them in a way, because before there wasn't even technology, like social media when I was growing up. So you couldn't even go on their Instagram and even if they didn't see it, be able to just say, Thanks for your music. Totally. Like we had no way of connecting with that.

Mik Porter: 21:45

We need to just take it one step further now and allow these artists to connect with their fans through music, rather than just through pictures and Twitter posts. We think that you should actually be able to see what your favorite artist is listening to in real time. There's so much value to be derived in that. And just being able to connect the artists and fans more through the art form that we love each other through. Right.

Kyle Kaplanis: 22:09

Mm-hmm and artists are craving it too, because like you even see, on TikTok, Charlie Puth, for instance, he's making a ton of TikTok's. I think he does it because he likes to connect with his fans. Right? He wants to connect back to and say, I'm a real person as well. Just because I create this music doesn't mean that I don't want to talk to you. Just because I'm a star or a celebrity. Lizzo's a great example of that as well. She's always doing fun stuff with her fans and answering them and commenting with them. And it brings the human element back that these people are not just celebrities or amazing artists that they're real humans as well, that wanna have that connection with their people that are listening, because they understand that without the listeners, they wouldn't be anything. This era we're in right now with community and bringing the two people together I'm so pumped for it. I love where the world is going. Social media is gonna be more of a positive experience there's way more positive that comes from it. It just depends on how you look at it.

Mik Porter: 22:57

Yeah, we're still in the first inning of social media, right? Yeah. So it's gonna continue to evolve and what more positive way and what brings more intrinsic value than finding your new favorite song or, making your friends day by sending them a song or connecting with someone through a song or helping it get through a time in your life as you alluded to. I could go on and on, but I love the examples you brought up. But for every Charlie Puth and Lizzo, there's a thousand more artists that maybe aren't so comfortable on TikTok or don't have that skill set that want to connect through music. And even for producers and songwriters, most people have no idea who has produced or written most of their hit songs. And we think that, they should be able to connect now through music and think that they're inherently really strong music curators too. And can now get some shine on themselves. And connect with their fans through, I love that The medium, we all love. Yeah.

Kyle Kaplanis: 23:50

I love that. It is so true. Sometimes you forget about that. Like the producers and the songwriters that they play a massive part into this, but, they've always been in the shadows. Having the opportunity to be able to come forward and say, Hey, look, I wrote some of these top hits, or did you know that song you love? You can see people on Needle Music who's likes those songs and they can reach out and connect with them and say, Hey, I was the writer of this. I think that's huge, that's a cool opportunity that we have not seen today. So this is really fun.

Mik Porter: 24:15

Exciting idea. Hell yeah. Good stuff Kyle.

Kyle Kaplanis: 24:18

Hell yeah. Talk to me is it on the app stores? How do they go about?

Mik Porter: 24:21

Yeah. Whether you have iOS or Android, and we even have, some limited functionality with iPads already. But we're on the app store and it's in our open beta. So I encourage you and your friends to use it. It's really exciting. It's easy to share. We have a lot of people that put their own profile links into their Instagram bios and things of that nature. So you can see what people are listening to via web based interactions. But yeah, it's on the app store and if you have Spotify premium, you have the full suite of functionality. If you don't, then right now you're limited to 30 second previews.

Kyle Kaplanis: 24:54

Yep.

Mik Porter: 24:54

But it's really fun, really simple and really exciting to see the impact we've had on our user base. We already have people that are dating from the app. We have people that are going to concerts with each other from the app. We have group chats based on super niche genres based on cities. We have artists that are using it as fan club, discord of sorts, just more innate and native to the music experience. There's a use case for everyone. Appreciate it.

Kyle Kaplanis: 25:18

Absolutely. We're wrapping this up, but you did make a good point. The friends typically growing up, especially us without social media, you realize at the end of the day, you don't have a lot in common so finding people that you do have stuff in common with is so powerful. Like you said, go to a concert, maybe me and you met Mik and we have the same taste and I'm like, Yo Mik, there's this world tour where we should go together, man. And you're like, fuck. Yeah. Cuz maybe your friends are like, I hate that music man or I hate concerts. Totally.

Mik Porter: 25:41

That's what we're building towards actually is being able to facilitate connections by saying this is your person in the world who actually has the same music taste as you. It's powerful to even think about, what could connect to countries at war more than, music potentially, right? If you can get on board with that and create any inch of shared understanding and shared love. That's the opening you need for open dialogue and for peace and for consensus and understanding. It's powerful to think about. Obviously that's far reaching, but why not? What more positive, medium than music.

Kyle Kaplanis: 26:13

Hell yeah, man. And does Needle Music have any socials that people can check out as well and follow.

Mik Porter: 26:18

Yeah, absolutely. We're on TikTok. We're @needle.Music. We've had some side accounts pop up too, that you can play with that are fun. Gotta keep it light and organic and, consistent on there. Same thing on Instagram and Twitter, you can find us on all those platforms.

Kyle Kaplanis: 26:34

That's awesome. For anybody listening I made it really, really, really simple for you. All you have to do is go to the description notes of wherever you're listening to this and I'm gonna put everything in there to follow Needle Music. You can take a listen and be able to download that and start using it today and start connecting with people who love the same music and interests as you. And if you're an artist, set up a profile today. That way you can start engaging with those who love your music and be able to connect with them and build that community. So you can be an artist for a lifetime. Mick, thank you so much for your time today on the BizTok for TikTok podcast, it's been a pleasure.

Mik Porter: 27:08

It has been a pleasure. Look forward to continuing this conversation. Cause 30 minutes isn't enough.

Kyle Kaplanis: 27:14

a hundred percent.